Thursday, October 9, 2014

How to Reverse Gum Disease Fast

Little did I realize when I started blogging about my success reversing my gum disease that secret weapon number one would turn out to be my water bottle.
In the years since I first shared my success recipe, I have received tons of feedback and I have had the chance to think and experiment a lot with an easy-to-overlook part of my success: all-day ninja water swishing.  In the words of a recent comment:
Hi Tom. Good to hear from you. By the way the swishing with water after eating has worked wonders. It sounds like common sense but many people just eat and the food residue just sits in their mouth bathing around the gums.
Early in my blogging I realized that the key to oral health was to find a way to keep the teeth and gums cleaner for a much larger percentage of the week.  In my blog posts, I ditched string flossing, and I focused on daytime swishing plus a single nightly cleaning with sonic brush and waterpik irrigator followed by an intentional night-time fast.  But independent of the other actions, I am understanding increasingly the importance of all-day water swishing, or in other words, swishing repeatedly after dirtying the mouth until the swishing water is clean and the mouth is clean.
If you keep a water bottle at your side all day, and clean your mouth by swishing repeatedly and vigorously every time you eat something, you will quickly see the following benefits:
  • Your gums will soon be a more healthy light pink color
  • Your breath will soon smell cleaner
  • Your general health (appetite, immunity, mood) will improve due to increased water intake
All the signs that quickly appear after you begin carrying around your secret weapon water bottle and swishing throughout the day point to success defeating your gum disease and tooth decay.
Be a Super Swisher.  Carry a water bottle, your top secret weapon, and don't be afraid to use it (in addition to your nightly cleaning and fast and other actions).  And please give your kid a hug.

82 comments:

Anonymous said...

Hi Tom,

I'm in my early twenties and suffer from gum recession on majority of my teeth - possibly due to trauma (braces and a underbite surgery) + now possibly decay.

The strangest thing is that it's been years since I had my surgery yet my gums have weakened and continued to recede.

I'll definitely consider water swishing, using an oral irrigator and other tips you have mentioned.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Yes. Hopefully you will see pinker gums and have cleaner breath before you know it.

Anonymous said...

hi Tom
you dont have to post this

just an afterthought

if you actually write mark manhart from calcium therapy, or show him your website, I think he would be very interested to correspond with you

he does mention things that is not inline with you like Stop power flossing, stop measuring pockets (it spreads from one pocket to another),i assume he is against oral piks as well

I think you would gain well to write him as you have conquered and have way more knowledge than me in this field

I know nothing as I'm still battling this in its infancy

Sharon L

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Good idea. I think I will do that. Thank again for the great find.

Tom

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Sharon, what I did happened to work for me and happened to be a little more natural and seem a little more right than what all the dentists were telling me. And some of my discoveries have given a lot of hope and ideas to a lot of people, but I am just a lay person. I have deep respect for Dr. Manhart, and I am already contemplating editing my posts with regard to germicides. I look forward to learning more from him. My own flavor and my own success story are valuable contributions, but it's good to work together to learn from each other and improve together. Isn't the internet great?!?

Anonymous said...

indeed you have given a lot of hope to many, i am one of them

it takes great courage to go against the "supposed" experts in this field example the dentists you have met

but one always must realise, sometimes they too have to pay the bills

thank you for hope.

sharon

Sonia said...

Hi Tom,

I've been reading your information with great interest and have been using the sonic toothbrush and waterpik for 6 weeks now.

I'm due to have an oral exam in one week, I have a couple of questions:

1) regarding hydrogen peroxide, I read conflicting stories on the internet. Some say it is not recommended to swish with H202 every day as it will erode the enamel.

Others report that it is perfectly safe. What percentage H202 do you use and do you dilute it with water before you swish?

How long do you leave the H202 in your mouth before rinsing?

Regarding water swishing, I know you've mentioned to swish with water after eating something. On average how long do you swish for each time? Is it a few minutes more more like 10 minutes at a time?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


thanks:)

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Thanks for visiting, Sonia.

1. H2O2. I don't typically use germicide any more. When I did, I would generally try to keep it in my mouth for at least a minute or more, sometimes while I walked around the house. In general, I used germicide depending on how my morning breath smelled.

2. Swishing. I swish repeatedly until nothing more comes out of my teeth, and until I feel clean. Probably just a few minutes. Not like Oil Pulling (20 minutes).

Sonia said...

great! Thanks for your prompt reply

Anonymous said...

Hi Tom,

Do you swallow after you swish? Sorry the question, but I spontaneously I would swish in the toilet and spit out ... when you mention you walk around with a bottle and swish it sounds as you swallow the stuff. Which is ok for me, I just want to know how you do it. And how many times a day do you swish?

Thanks,

Irene

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Hi, Irene. I don't swallow germicide, but I do swallow my after-food-water-swishing most of the time. After all, we all can usually use more water in our bellies!

Kent said...

Tom,

Are you really seeing/experiencing bone regrowth?

I don't want to sound skeptical, but I have been told and have read that this is not possible. Perhaps, you are a rare case where it did happen. Do your x-rays show more bone?

Btw, your gums look really good.

Lastly, I have heard Xylitol is good for your teeth.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Kent, I am no expert. I haven't asked my dentist about the lumps on my gums. Have you seen my Youtube video showing the lumps? I am no longer on a periodontal treatment program, if that means anything to you. I will try to remember to ask my dentist.

Anonymous said...

Hi Tom. Just came across your blog. Perfect timing. Can I ask a question. Do you think if tartar present it is a good idea to get teeth scraped. Just been told about gum disease and that is next step on the dentist road. Swilling and swishing like crazy. Thanks.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

I'm not sure what is the right thing to do, but I always get my semi-annual (every 6 month) hygienist cleanings. I have never had invasive root planings. I do know that hydrogen peroxide is a debriding (cleaning) agent.

Dr. Mark Manhart says " NO ONE NEEDS GUM SURGERIES, even when it is called deep cleaning, planing and scaling. In the 1970s dental/medicine dumped root planing due to the damage it does to the roots." I don't think he means routine hygienist cleanings.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

p.s. I mean I don't think he is against routine cleanings.

Anonymous said...

Dear Thomas,

Unless you are afflicted by this emotionally degrading condition, it's difficult to understand how wonderful it is to find a blog like yours and also find a bit of hope that we might be as diligent as yourself and actually turn things around. I let my fear of the dentist almost ruin my marriage....embarrassed by teeth, bad breath, stopping kissing my husband- having the obvious knock-on effects and generally talking to people, avoiding close social situations. I finally got the courage to visit the dentist last week and heard what I expected, circa 10 x 3 mm pockets. It's not as bad as some people but at 30 years old, it does give you a shake up. I just wanted to say how much I value your dedication not only to what you had to deal with personally but also to people, like me, who come to this blog for a bit of support. I am bowled over by the level of personal feedback you give people. So, sending a heartfelt thanks, Waterpik on order and swishing water my new best friend.

Swishingwifey, Derbyshire, UK.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

I bet just the swishing will make you kissable before you know it. Add the WaterPik with nightly diligence and you'll have it licked. I think you have zeroed in on the two things that are most important for you at this time. Take heart, using the WaterPik is fun and refreshing.

theautismcuredotorg said...

I recommend this to oatients always but as our diets are very processed we do build calcium deposits which becime barnicles of bacteria which if are not removed professionally will cause the teeth and gums and even bine to reject the teeth and in not fixing the typos as I had to retype my post after signing in.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Yes. Thanks.

Harry said...

Hi Thomas, great blog, specifically on the topic of teeth. I discovered some of what you say by myself, but my conversion is very recent, just a few months back. I now believe that food should be in your mouth only when it is being eaten. Before and after, the mouth has to be clean. So I do swishing I guess all the time, I already use the water pick and I am planning to add on more things over the next few weeks.

I am due to for a root canal in a few weeks - it has been delayed because the doctor wants me to go on valium and someone needs to drive me and that could only happen after the kids schools close. Anyways, the root canal was not urgent, and this gave me time to read and experiment and I like the changes. However, while I believe that good habits can improve gums and maybe even cavities, I am not so sure about saving this 1 tooth that is so far gone that they need a surgery. It will be good to have your perspective on this...

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Well, my unprofessional perception about these issues is that they typically move very slowly and that if you are in a healing phase, it might not hurt to wait and see. I'm not sure if you are feeling up to trying fasting. If you are, there is always the delay of waiting for that to see how it works. Again, if you are in a healing phase, waiting might be a good thing.

Tom

Harry said...

Thanks Tom, well I do the 12 hour fast anyways. Have dinner by or around 7 and have breakfast by or around 7. I do not snack. Only thing I have not been doing is to consistently clean my mouth / teeth after the meal and sometimes it slips till maybe 10 in the night. I can definitely fix that and have 12 hours of cleanliness in the mouth. Not sure if I can do a longer fast, but I once in a while can and do skip a meal, so maybe I try to skip 1 dinner every week or 2 so that my mouth gets an 18 hours break. Beyond this, let us see.

Yes I am definitely in a healing phase but this tooth (almost but not the wisdom tooth) is so far gone that I feel I will need to get it fixed anyways. Lets see how the next 2-4 weeks look after I make more changes.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

I hope to hear how it goes.

Anonymous said...

Hi Thomas. 3-4 mm pockets. Suffered from ANUG a few years back and trying to fix all of this including bad breath that really feels like at times its ruining my life. Wondering if you can go into more detail about your use of bleach irrigation? I saw the link but I am curious about the effects of using it and how you managed to not ingest it and what benefits you saw (and how quickly)? By the way, thank you for sharing something as personal as all of this.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Generally when I irrigate with the WaterPik I don't find that I accidentally swallow any of the water. So when I use Listerine or bleach I haven't had a problem. Irrigating with bleach tastes and feels different. Since you only use a small amount of bleach, it is quite gentle.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Oops. I accidentally submitted the comment. Anyway, I think that the bleach really helps and makes a quick difference with your morning breath. And your morning breath is a very important indicator of how well you are healing your gum disease.

Anonymous said...

Thank you! So far I have been using hydrogen peroxide once a day and am noticing a huge difference. My only concern is it has caused my gums to tear in one area (near the tooth where I have excessive recession) and it makes another area where my gums bothered me white around the teeth. Could this be burning my gums or is this just debrading the dying gum tissue? Did you use hydrogen peroxide at the same time as the bleach irrigation? Just wondering what your treatment schedule looked like. I am really pleased with just brushing with hydrogen peroxide but I just want to make sure what I am experiencing is typical and I am not causing any additional issues. Thank you for the quick response. Two days of normal breath and no bad taste in my mouth. THANK YOU!

Thomas Gail Haws said...

I did sometimes feel like hydrogen peroxide was hard on my mouth. And eventually I stopped using germicides and settled on plain water irrigation. I think that the germicides may be an important temporary part of treatment. I liked the idea of alternating among the germicides, and I used Listerine, iodine, bleach, and hydrogen peroxide.

Now I just brush, rinse, and irrigate with water most of the time.

Anonymous said...

May I ask for a link for your video of gum/bone regrowth? Thanks for the inspiration, love your info!

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Try this post. And thanks for your encouraging words.

Beth said...

Hi Thomas, thank you for your blog which has given me hope. I only started looking after my teeth in the last 2 years since having a baby got me free dental care. Last month I was referred to a periodontist as regular cleanings were not proving enough. Periodontist did X-rays and measured pockets and told me I have 25%-33% bone loss and up to 9mm pockets. My gums have receded a lot. More so since I've been getting more regular cleanings due to the swelling reducing I think. I'm booked in for root planing and scaling next week but have been reading your posts and comments as well as Dr Mark Manhart's recommendations and am now having second thoughts about the procedure. I've ordered the calcium therapy home kit, I have a sonicare, I'm swishing, stopping eating earlier in the evening to give my mouth a clean break, I'm about to order a water irrigator (what make and model do you recommend please?) and am going to read up on fasting next and begin small with a 24 hour fast. I'm changing my diet (no more sugar, processed food or refined carbohydrates). I have been using hydrogen peroxide but got spooked that maybe it was too harsh and was doing more harm than good (Dr Manhart is anti harsh chemical mouthwashes), so now I think I'm going to try just Grapefruit seed extract.
Do you think I should go ahead with the scaling and root planing regardless of my intentions to try improve my predicament naturally? Dr Manhart says avoid invasive procedures, that scaling and root planing can cause more damage, but everyone else (Dentists) say it is vital to remove the bacteria within the pockets if I want to keep my teeth, bone, jaw (!). I'm thinking of putting it off for 3 months maybe to see if I notice any difference with self treatment, maybe go and get pockets measured again then, see if any improvement, although Dr Manhart says don't get your pockets measured either because it spreads bacteria!! Aggh! As you can tell I'm a bit stressed and upset about my situation which probably isn't helping! Lol
Thanks look forward to hearing from you.
Beth

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Beth, Arrrrgghhh is right. To wait or not to wait. Here's a possible ray of hope for you: a few months or a year of delay of root planing is not going to hurt you, especially if you are truly turning over a new leaf. If this has saken you up as much as it sounds, I believe you will have greatest peace canceling all root planing appointments ("for the time being") and observing your gums and breath for a few weeks or months.

I can appreciate that it is vital to remove the bacteria. I can think of three possible ways to remove the bacteria that you might try before having root planing.
1. Nightly irrigation.
2. Manhart's treatment. (I hope you will return and report your experience if you do this.)
3. Long fasting.

I don't know your situation, so I don't know if you can do a long fast, though it is sure to help. Short fasts and nightly fasts will also help.

I am not picky about an irrigator. I simply bought a WaterPik because that is what I knew. Mine has served me faithfully for 5 years now. I suggest you buy whatever you can get as soon as you can. Meanwhile, the "Ninja swishing" (see my post about oil pulling) will help without a doubt.

The great news is that if you postpone your root planing and continue faithfully with swishing, fasting, irrigating, and diet improvements, you will see improvement very quickly. You may want to take photos just to amaze your family!

Diana said...

Hi Tom,

I came across your blog about 18 months ago when I began to develop oral/dental problems after being stable for many years. When I got the bad news I went crazy, researching everything, trying everything. Long story short, here is my routine:

a.m.: Swish mouth with Closys, which contains sterile chlorine dioxide. Hope it's OK to provide a commercial name. I am not affiliated w/the company! It's expensive stuff but I collect coupons and anyway, no sacrifice is too great for your teeth. I dip my toothbrush in the solution first, by the way, and tap it before I swish. Then I brush my teeth with a regular toothpaste, I rinse my mouth, and then waterpik one tank.

p.m. Brush with Elgydium an expensive French toothpaste that contains chlorhexidine. This might not be necessary but whatever....then waterpik as above. Then one minute with prescription fluoride toothpaste, which I do not rinse.

Occasionally during the day I swish with dilute solution of baking soda, which alkalizes the mouth and counteracts carb-induced acidity.

So far, so good.

Thanks for your excellent advice.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Success rocks. Thanks for sharing.

Anonymous said...

Hi Tom
Any inputs you got from Beth regarding Dr. Manhart's calcium therapy? I had comments on your first post on your gum diseases reversal. I bought a waterpik and been using it for past 3 days. Curious to know more about calcium therapy.

Regards Ajay

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Hi, again, Ajay. I have not heard any reports from Beth about Dr. Manhart's therapy. I talked a bit with Dr. Manhart. From what I understand it isn't super expensive to try it at home. Let me know if you get any good or bad results. How do you like your WaterPik?

Anonymous said...

Hi Thomas
The waterpik experience is good. I am using it for 3 days now. I contacted Dr Manhart via an email. He responded in details and asked me to send X ray image and selfie image of teeth with lips wide open. I have mailed all the images. Waiting for his reply now.

Have you reviewed vitamin C therapy for periodontal disease? Which type of vitamin C to use Sodium ascorbate or calcium ascorbate?

I am really desperately wanting to avoid surgery on right side

Thanks and Regards
Ajay

Thomas Gail Haws said...

I don't know about Vitamin C therapy, but I know your diet needs to be good, preferably with lots of natural color instead of processed color or bland whites and browns.

Cool about Manhart. I hope you will stay in touch and let me know how that goes. He seems like a good soul.

Unknown said...

Hi! I'm 21 years old and I'm completely embarssed with my mouth I have pretty bad periodontal disease. I've had a huge phobia with the dentist after getting tonsil removal surgery when I was 7 I absolutely fear things going in so I avoid brushing all together which is stupid! I'm ready to combat this and not let my teeth go to hell, I'm still young and I want to keep my teeth the thought of losing them scares me. What should I do firstly?

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Hi, T(?),
Motivation is probably the most important factor, and it sounds like you are motivated. Why don't you take some time to look at all my gum disease posts, especially my Top ten actions to reverse gum recession? Then let me know any thoughts or questions you have.

Tom

Anonymous said...

Hi,
Do you have any x-rays showing that you had certain amount of bone loss around your teeth? I think that you may not have had gum disease. Perhaps you just had gingivitis which is the early stage of gum disease that can be reversed.

Anonymous said...

Hello:
Just wondering: I'm having trouble with gum recession as a result of grinding teeth, and am getting a night guard soon. (Along with learning to slow down/ relax a bit!) The other trouble is cavities. Big ones continue to pop up, in spite of very limited sugar intake, no processed foods, low carbs, etc. I've just started using the sonicare and Waterpik, and they seem to be keeping things clean, but I'm hesitant to give up toothpaste or brush only once a day given the persistent teeth troubles. Just trying to find a balance between being gentle to gums and cleaning teeth super thoroughly. Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Thomas Gail Haws said...

I was on periodontal treatment, and I had pockets up to 7mm deep. I am sure there were x-rays, but I did not pay attention to them. I did bring home copies of my periodontal examination (pocket depth) charts. The dentists called it gum disease (periodontitis), not gingivitis. That's about the best I can tell you.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

According to Wikipedia "To have a true periodontal pocket, a probing measurement of 4 mm or more must be clinically evidenced." My teeth did not look like the more scary photos, but I had widespread pockets 4mm or deeper. See the numbers on many of my posts about gum disease.

Anonymous said...

Thank you for your quick reply on my comment on Jan 19th at 4pm. I really like your blog. I am going to try the 12-24 hour fasting and the water flosser.

Anonymous said...

Hi Tom,

It's heartening to read about your progress! Just wondering: have you ever had any issues with cavities? Does your routine keep those at bay as well? I have issues with both gums and cavities and am hoping a fast will help with the decay problem, too.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

For some reason I have had little problem with cavities since I left my teen years. I guess this happens with a lot of people. I don't know why. Anyway, I don't currently have any problems at all, and my dentist congratulates me when I visit him.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Hey, sorry I missed your comment about your grinding teeth. I don't know a lot about stopping cavities. I've been fortunate to have little trouble with cavities since my youth.

Anonymous said...

My name is Nicole. I've had three mandible jaw surgeries cutting my bone and reattaching it with titanium. After all that over ten years and braces for also over ten years, my bottom front teeth are receding. I think its due to over brushing. I have a waterpik but rarely use it. Would you suggest using a low setting and angling the waterpik towards the gumline to correct this issue? I've had two gum grafts on the one particularly bad tooth but I've never had bad cleanings. Dentist tell me I'm doing great but the gum line continues to recede. I'm 28. I have horrible anxiety about my mouth, all attributed to these receding bottom gums.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

I'm sorry to hear about your terrible story with your jaw. I think that the beginning of your turnaround has to be lots of swishing and a companion water bottle. I agree with your thoughts about the waterpik, and you can try using it nightly. You should be able to tell within days whether you are getting better results based on how your gums look, feel, and smell.

Anonymous said...

Good evening. I am 22 and have just been diagnosed with periodontal disease. I currently have 4 loose teeth and I am very scared about them. I have been referred to a periodontist on the 6th July and will have further check up then. I have been crying and having sleepless nights ever since the discovery of my loose teeth. The dentist told me that I have lost about 40% of my bone due to the disease and my gums are receding. I have had deep cleaning done ( scaling ) and the dentist told me this should be hopefully be sufficent enough, however, i am sceptical. I have just started oil pulling for the past 2 days as I've heard it's good . I'm going to be doing this until the 6th and see ignore I get any results. I am very scared as I do not want to loose my teeth at this age. I've definitely had a wake up call and since I've had deep cleaning done at the dentist and have purchased a hydrogen peroxide mouthwash ( recommended by dentist). I've been using interdental brushes and my normal toothbrush at the same time. After reading up on you , I see you as a successs story. Any advice from you would be highly appreciated. Should I continue to oil pull and hope my gums will grow back from the deep cleaning done ? . I've been reading up on bone grafts and think this might be an option for me. Thank you

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Hi. I am really sorry to hear about your condition, but glad for your wake-up call. If your breath and the color of your gums don't get better fast, you will need to up your game. First you'll need to rinse even more than the daily oil pulling. Then if your breath and color still don't improve, you will need to get a WaterPik. I hope you are not damaging your gums with anything like smoking or super hot food/drink. Pampering care is the secret to healing. Let me know if you have trouble getting your breath and color to improve.

Unknown said...

I have lost several teeth and am using prothesys to replace them. Prothesys are fixed to neighboring pieces and I have noticed that some of these are a bit loose. Do you think that it is possible to stop the disease by following you advice? Could they come back again to normal teeth? I am 77 years old and have recently been using H2O2 + DMSO to see if I can stop the infections around them. Thanks for your kind comments and advice. Your's is a wonderful blog.
Rod Betancur

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Rodrigo, I don't have enough experience to give you any certainty. But I hypothesize that under the right conditions your teeth can become more firmly anchored. And I believe that is what happened with my teeth resulting in the bumps you can see in the Youtube video I made.

Unknown said...

hello Thomas my name is Rafael i had gum surgery 2 years ago in my right side upper gums after the surgery i was in pain for 14 days straight awful,i have deep pockets and one of my tooth is showing bone loss and they want to pull it out that tooth which iam due for that but after watching your you tube video made me put it off, what do suggest for me to save my tooth and better my gum disease ? what is dr manharth email thanks for your help.

Unknown said...

hello Thomas my name is Rafael i had gum surgery 2 years ago in my right side upper gums after the surgery i was in pain for 14 days straight awful,i have deep pockets and one of my tooth is showing bone loss and they want to pull it out that tooth which iam due for that but after watching your you tube video made me put it off, what do suggest for me to save my tooth and better my gum disease ? what is dr manharth email thanks for your help.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Rafael, maybe it would help (Mark Manhart is mm at calciumtherapy dot com) for you to study all the suggestions I make here and see if any of them seem right to you: better eating, avoid temperature extremes and smoking, try fasting, irrigation, swishing, rest, water, etc. Did you see my top ten list?

Anonymous said...

I eat mint leaves out of my mums garden after 2 weeks the gum disease adjusted to what i was doing ;(

But for 2 weeks i ate 2 leaves a day with great results!

also boiling mint in hot water and gargling works well too, but be warned - use for 2 week time periods. it can be hard on your heart.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

That sounds wild!

Sun said...

(part 1/2 due to comment size limitation)
Hi, Tom! I've read all (!) of your blogs and comments about gums and health. My conclusion from what I've read in the comments on your blog and from my own bad experience is that oral hygiene has very little to do with gum health. I've read a lot of comments on your blog from people with perfect oral hygiene and bad gums. Also, from my own experience I didn't notice the correlation between oral hygiene and gum health. Also, I didn't notice the correlation between the ratio of time my gums are being clean vs dirty and my gums health.
I do not smoke, I do not drink alcohol (because my gums start bleeding very badly after consuming alcohol), I never ate/drank too cold/hot food/liquids in my life (I had a lot of problems because of it in my life, it's easier to be a vegan in our society than to be somebody who doesn't consume too cold/hot food). I sleep as much as I want every day. Of course, I do not eat spicy and acidic foods (like oranges and lemons) because after them my gums become much worse very quickly. I use WaterPik flossing, regular flossing, Philips Sonicare, hydrogen peroxide swishing.
I used to have a bad breath. But half a year ago I decided to add a tiny amount of hydrogen peroxide in WaterPik and my bad breath was gone in 3 days. I didn't have a bad breath since then. But my gums are still red, swollen and often bleeding.
I experimented a lot with keeping my mouth clean as long as possible. I ate 1-2 times a day, cleaned my mouth immediately after eating (regular flossing + ultrasonic brushing + water flossing + hydrogen peroxide swishing) and had no snacks whatsoever. Zero results. I tried to clean my mouth only in the evening (in order not to damage my gums by cleaning them too often) as you advice. Zero results.
I experimented with different types of diets. Weston Price diet, WFPB HCLF and LCHF, gluten free, vegan, starch-based, fruit-based, only liquid food through a straw, legumes-based. Some of the diets made it worse, some did nothing. I know them all: Nathan Pritikin, John McDougall, Caldwell Esselstyn, Dean Ornish and even Walter Kempner, and of course Atkins and Michael Greger and many more. They didn't help me. But I noticed some eating patters which make my gums worse. But unfortunately, I didn't notice an eating pattern that makes my gums better.

Sun said...

(part 2/2)
Of course I experimented with oil pulling (useless if not harmful), with many different types of mouthwashes (many of them made my gums worse), swishing with salty water (very bad for my gums), with Dead Sea Mud (lol), with white clay, with chlorhexidine. Hydrogen peroxide is the best option so far.
I tried fasting a bit. But my gums would become so red and bleeding that I became afraid and started eating again. Maybe I should fast longer.
I tried some supplements (actually, I have a big box at home filled with products from iherb and local pharmacies) and that's what I want to ask you about. In on of your comments you mentioned that you take "Over 50 vitamin including B12", what supplements exactly do you eat? Maybe water swishing after every meal and snack, water-flossing, sonic brushing and 12 hours nightly fast had nothing to do with your success. Maybe it was something else, e.g. your 12 days fast did everything or the right supplements or something else (did you start doing yoga when your gums started improving, or did you change your job, or did you start running, or relocated, or something else)?
It's unlikely to be your diet because there are a lot of vegans in the comments to your posts (and on reddit) who have gum problems. I tried vegan diets myself and my gums only got worse.
Of course I visited the periodontist and I regularly go to the dental hygienist to clean my teeth. It didn't help. Actually, right after the two most recent regular cleanings my gums got worse.
One week my gums can be relatively pink, but next week they can become red and bleeding again. Today e.g. they are very red (and I don't know why), hurting a bit, but not bleeding yet.
Please answer about the supplements you take. I want to try taking them all too.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Hi, Sun.

I agree that oral hygiene is only 1 part of gum health. It is a part, but it's not everything. I also appreciate that everybody's body and history are different.

I take a cheap generic multi-vitamin similar to Centrum Silver. That's all other than my food, which is very simple and basic (rice, beans, oats, fruit, veggies, herbs, spices, plain yogurt, mackerel). No yoga (I am not sure exactly what that means). But my life had a lot of changes in 2010 (divorce and layoff; enough said)! Maybe my stress level went down. I have heard that oral health is related to stress.

It sounds like you are a great and persistent scientist. I wonder with you whether fasting longer would help. One thing that makes me think that is the results you've had from dietary experiments. It could be there is a deficiency or sensitivity you are teetering on discovering.

I guess you should also at least be aware of Dr. Mark Manhart's calcium therapy. I haven't had any positive reports, but I am intrigued.

Sun said...

Tom, could you list the ingredients of your generic multi-vitamin (or better give me a link to it, or give me its name so I could google its ingredients)? Btw, have you been eating the same multi-vitamin all these years? When did you start eating it? Did you eat the same/any multi-vitamin long time ago when your gum health was declining?

>No yoga (I am not sure exactly what that means).
You mentioned yoga in this comment http://tomsthird.blogspot.com/2012/12/top-ten-actions-to-reverse-gum-recession.html?showComment=1482098608068#c7774013199626323459 and you gave this link http://www.yogaworld.org/amazing/introspection.htm (Yoga World) in that comment
There are a few papers on PubMed about yoga improving periodontal health.

>Dr. Mark Manhart's calcium therapy
When I hear the word "calcium" or "vitamin D3" or "vitamin K2" I expect it to be a hoax created by supplement industry (but I could be wrong). There is too much buzz around it. Actually, I suspect that "oil pulling" is also pushed by coconut oil industry to sell more coconut oil (how else could you explain a lot of comments from random people who just registered to leave a comment (and never come back) about how good coconut oil is under a random article about oil pulling). "Oil pulling" didn't help me. But I would buy and try Dr. Mark Manhart's calcium therapy anyway (because it's not expensive) if I was in the USA.
I don't believe in calcium in general because no matter how much calcium and vitamin D you eat it won't be absorbed if you don't have enough magnesium. But no matter how much magnesium you eat it won't be absorbed if you don't have enough selenium. And who knows how many more known and unknown dependencies like this exist. But nobody tells you about them, my doctors advertise only vitamin D (because they are paid to promote it?). Vitamin D + calcium supplements didn't help me (and I didn't need vitamin D in the first place because I had enough sun exposure). Actually, when my gums started to bleed (1 year ago) I had more sun exposure than ever in my adult life. If anything, my gums could start to bleed because I had too much vitamin D.

>It could be there is a deficiency or sensitivity
It could. Half a year before my gums started to bleed I had moved to a very different place and started to eat different food. But coming back to my home and switching back to my usual diet didn't help.

>I have heard that oral health is related to stress
Me too. But I don't understand how anyone could be calm when his gums are a mess and only getting worse.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Sun,

Dr. Manhart's therapy is topical, not internal. You put it on your teeth. I am not sure exactly what it is.

Yoga: Yeah I understand yoga in the sense of a general spiritual practice. In 2010 I read Eckhart Tolle's "A New Earth" and started a serious, but informal, consciousness/stopping/mindfulness practice including what's linked at Yogaworld. I don't think that is the sense that is generally used in the USA. That's why I was coy about it.

Microbiome: I was wondering if maybe something happened to your microbiome. Your follow-up message makes me wonder more. I know that microbiome therapy is fraught with difficulty. It may not be as easy as eating some yogurt or taking a few pills. It may have something to do with things like diet, antibiotics (bad!), and stress. I am not sure. Somebody even took cultures from healthy kids' mouths (but I am thinking of the large intestine too) and sells it as "K12" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449041/

Multivitamin: http://labeling.pfizer.com/ShowLabeling.aspx?id=11438

It helps to know that this is a problem that arose at a particular time. Let me know if I missed anything.

Tom

Harry Singh said...

Hi Thomas, so I posted in 2015, been tracking this thread since then and your comment about stress and oral health pulled me back.

In fact, I had a pretty bad 2015 and even after root canals and cleanings and water-pick and what not, my gums would be super sensitive. Had to visit dentist many times, and had to use some oils/desensitizers many a times. Could not control it. Then I had a heart issue, thankfully not too severe, they put 2 stents in, and after that no pain. Was talking to the dentist much later and she agreed (but would she say otherwise) that some underlying heart condition coupled with reduced blood flow may have made some minor issue worse. Stress and Heart are not 100% related but hey maybe there is a 20% co-relation so I would expect some improvement in general well being (including oral health) if stress could be reduced.

Or maybe good oral hygiene coincided with the heart issue :) - like a lone gunman - we may never know.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Sun,

Multivitamin: I don't think there was a significant change to my vitamin supplement habits in 2010. In 2010 I kept a rigorous log of my health for a while. Looking at it now, it lasted from October 09 through May 2010. I see a M (for medication?) section: once it hs 2 Tylenol, for a long while it has yogurt, there is a stint with brewer's yeast, I see Tension Tamer tea once, but I don't see any multivitamins anywhere. Always and even now I have been hit and miss with multivitamins, and I think of them as a fail-safe. I really only take them for the B12.

Winco Complete Multivitamin Seniors 50+: Since I am 53, I have only been taking this particular vitamin a few years. I put it in my smoothie several times per week. In addition to what's listed for Centrum Silver, it has
150 mcg Boron as Borates
5 mcg Nickel as Nickelous Sulfate
2 mg Silicon as Silicon Dioxide
10mcg Vanadium as Sodium Metavanadate
300 mcg Lycopene
250mcg Lutein

2010 logs: I was trying to improve my immunity. I ended up concluding:
1. Wheat bad (this is now my single strict rule; wheat is followed in two days by pimples)
2. Oranges bad (Grapefruit, lime, lemon okay. This appears to be because too much sugar is bad.)
3. Plain yogurt good. (I have long experiments with and without it, and I am convinced for me a couple of tablespoons here and there (a quart per month or so) does more good than harm.)
4. Natural rainbow (lots of color) good.
5. Starches good.
6. Balanced calorie profile (intentional fat; peanuts, olives, avocados, mackerels) good.

Tom

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Harry,

Yeah. I guess that's why anecdotal evidence is of limited value. There's a paradox. You only get statistically useful information from demographic studies. But everybody is different, so your personal demographic is just you.

Of course it helps if you can do repeated trials like I did with wheat and yogurt. But a one-off like the fasting (or my final healing) or your surgery is very uncertain.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Sun,

I just did a new post putting my gum disease history in the context of my greater immunity journey, which seems to be where you are driving at. It's here: http://tomsthird.blogspot.com/2020/05/my-discoveries-about-my-immunity.html

I hope it helps.

Tom

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Here's the link to the new post.

Sun said...

Update after 1 month of eating vitamins: no results (actually, it got worse). I bought Centrum Men 50+ (though I'm much younger) and ate 1-2 tables a day (the instruction says 1 tablet per day). I chose this version of vitamins because it has less iron and less copper than other versions of Centrum. Some people (Neal Barnard and John McDougall) say it's better to avoid these minerals in multivitamins unless you have iron deficiency anemia, etc.
Here are some observations during this month which may be important:
— about acne. My acnes were extremely bad since the beginning of this year. I think I finally figured out why. It has very little to do with what I eat. But it has a lot to do with what state I'm in when I'm eating. If I eat a big meal when I'm hungry I'll 100% get a new acne. The most hungriest time of the day is morning (because of the nightly fast). If I skip lunch and dinner one day and eat a huge breakfast next day I'll 100% get a big new acne. So basically I get new acne every time I eat considerable amount of carbs while I'm hungry (I didn't experiment with fats and protein). Tiny amount of carbs (less than a tablespoon of oats) 1-2 hours prior to breakfast seems to help with acne. Even 1 tablespoon of oats in the morning gives me new pimples if I'm hungry enough. One banana in the morning if I'm hungry gives me a gigantic acne.
- about gums. It seems that eating a big meal while I'm in a hungry state does harm for my gums as well. Eating plain oats or plain bread at night makes my gums feel much worse in the morning.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Sun,

That is fascinating information about your immunity!

About the vitamins, for comparison, I am a little concerned about overdose toxicity, so I only have maybe 4 or 5 tablets per week. I know I am eating very well. So I see the vitamins as primarily B12 (400% daily value per tablet) and maybe some infill on other things here and there.

Have you tried yet focusing on your microbiome via the foods you eat (prebiotics) and probiotics?

I am shocked by your experience with oats. Have you tried steel cut vs old-fashioned or quick? Have you studied glycemic index? Are you eating whole beans?

Do you think you may be getting microbiome blooms on an empty stomach from things like a banana? Is it better when you mix your foods? Does fat (I use peanuts, olives, avocados, and mackerels) help? Do you still have your appendix?

Stay in touch.

Tom

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Sun,
p.s. I don't know where you live. But if you want to try steel cut oats, Sprouts and Winco Foods have them in their bulk food sections for $0.70 per pound, the same as rolled oats.

Sun said...

Tom,

— about oats. I have never eaten steel cut oats. Recently I have been eating instant rolled oats and (when instant oats were out of stock) quick cooking rolled oats. I didn't cook them properly. How did I "cook" them? I just added room temperature water, waited a bit and ate. That time I ate quick cooking oats for dinner (and nothing else, no oil, no fruit, no veggies, no sugar) and I let them stay in water for no more than a couple of minutes. When I woke up next day, my gums hurt much more than in the evening.

— about bread. Exactly the same experience as with quick cooking oats. One day I ate a lot of plain bread (no added sugar, no added fat, at least for my taste) at dinner with nothing else, just bread. Next day I woke up with painful and bleeding gums.

Moreover, in both these situations in the morning I had unpleasant feeling inside of me, something like heartburn.

— about multivitamins. I ate it mainly for selenium. Because I found information that selenium helps with gums (it didn't help my gums).

>Do you think you may be getting microbiome blooms on an empty stomach from things like a banana?
Actually, I thought it could be related to the (well known?) fact that in starvation the carbohydrate tolerance is decreased. So it could have something to do with blood sugar level and/or insulin. I got this idea to eat a tiny amount of carbs 1-2 hours before breakfast from scientific articles demonstrating that glucose tolerance test (after starvation or high fat/carnivore diet) is improved if the patient is given a small amount of glucose 1-2 hours before the test.

>Does fat (I use peanuts, olives, avocados, and mackerels) help?
Recently I tried peanuts and peanut butter. I had horrible experience with both. Long time ago I tried many types of seeds and nuts with no positive results. Actually, every time I eat fat (e.g. butter or a salad with sunflower oil or bone broth or even fried rice), my nose becomes itchy almost immediately (but this itchiness disappears rather quickly). I had this reaction all my life.

>Is it better when you mix your foods?
Yes

>Do you still have your appendix?
Yes, I have all my organs

>Are you eating whole beans?
There was a period in my life when I ate whole beans every day for a month. No miracle happened. I don't eat them often now.

>Have you tried yet focusing on your microbiome via the foods you eat (prebiotics) and probiotics?
No. I tried eating prebiotics/probiotics long time ago and I used to eat multivitamins with prebiotics/probiotics as one of ingredients. But it was long before I started using Waterpik and hydrogen peroxide.

>Have you studied glycemic index?
I know what it is. But I don't choose my food based on its glycemic index.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Hi, Sun. Great message.

I just read all your messages again, and this sure sounds like a microbiome problem. I don't know how else to account for the onset of the problem when you went to a new place with new food unless that's just a coincidence.

The reason I am asking about glycemic effect, different kinds of oats, and whole beans is I am wondering (as you are) about your reaction to sugar, whether it be blood sugar or intestinal microbiome. It might be interesting to see if you have any different reaction along the glycemic continuum through instant, quick, old fashioned, and steel cut oats. There is some difference in glycemic index along the continuum. But any form of oats still loads you more than beans or even brown rice do.

Another thing you indicated might be the issue is sensitivities. But with your background on various diets, I would think you would have spent at least some time free of wheat, corn, soy, and other common irritants including toxic lectins (I have a post about those).

Now, about fasting. Yes, it could very well be that your gum deterioration when you fast is a detoxification effect. And it could be that a careful longer fast could help you. You'd have to discuss that with somebody like Alan Goldhamer who has supervised thousands of healing fasts (Natural Hygienists is the term for the industry that knows about fasting).

You also might try 2 weeks of experiment with glycemic index. But I think you should at least talk to a Natural Hygienist to see what they think.

Sun said...

Here're my new observations, thoughts, questions and good news. A few days ago I decided to make a few small adjustments to my oral hygiene routine:
- Up until a few days ago I was using a Toothbrush Tip (https://www.waterpik.com/oral-health/tips-accessories/TB-100E/) with my WaterPik. I changed it to a Classic Jet Tip (the simplest one). Only yesterday I realized that a Toothbrush Tip has 90° turn/angle and 90° angles are very bad for water pipe systems, it could interfere with the pulsation of the water and make it less effective. What tip do you use?
- I increased the concentration of hydrogen peroxide in the WaterPik reservoir. I used to add 10 ml of 3% hydrogen peroxide per a full reservoir (400 ml). Now I add 25 ml.
- After water flossing I started to always swish 1-1.5% hydrogen peroxide solution in my mouth. Now the concentration is so high and I swish it for so long that my tongue burns a bit after swishing.
- I started to use regular floss between all the teeth. Before I didn't floss between the teeth that were hard to reach.
- I started to use a mouth scraper every day.
- I limited all these procedures to only once per day in the evening (before nightly fast). Why? Because if I clean my inflamed gums, it makes them more inflamed. If I eat right after a full proper cleaning, my gums become even more inflamed. Besides, if I cleaned my mouth after breakfast (as I usually did), they would become "dirty" again as soon as I start eating lunch.
- I stopped eating (sweet) fruit for breakfast. Why? Because fruit is sugar. If I eat it in the morning then my gums will be exposed to sugar for almost 12 hours. If I eat fruit for dinner, my gums will be exposed to sugar for only 1 hour. Besides, I have (and always had) an unpleasant feeling in my stomach/chest if I eat too much fruit in the morning.
- I increased the pressure setting on my water flosser just a little bit. It's still set almost to the minimum.

The first time I did this, my gums became even more swollen, red and were bleeding all night and stopped bleeding only after breakfast. But the very same day when I was brushing my teeth with my sonicare toothbrush in the evening, there was no blood in the toothpaste when I spat it! Every single day before that day (for at least several weeks) the toothpaste was red when I spat it in the sink after brushing my teeth.

5 days have passed since then and I still see no noticeable blood in the toothpaste after brushing. Though there is some blood after flossing and water-flossing. My gums are still red and swollen and bleed occasionally. Also, it seems the most inflamed areas of my gums don't hurt as much now when I point the water jet to them (but it could be just my imagination).

The biggest change I noticed is: my teeth don't get covered in rough substance so fast anymore. My teeth stay "smooth" and "glossy" much longer now. Before, my teeth were "smooth" only after brushing them with a sonicare toothbrush. But 1 hour after breakfast they were not "smooth" again. I could feel with my tongue they are not smooth. Actually, I could scrape my teeth with my nail and I could see white odorless substance on my nail. My teeth were covered not only near the gum line but everywhere, even at the bottom/top. Actually, until recently, I wasn't even sure whether this substance is good or bad. But now I'm inclined to think it is bad. Because now my teeth stay "glossy" much longer and my gums feel better. Also, I have an impression that this substance covers my teeth faster on the side of the mouth where the gums feel worse. Can you give me your comments on this observation? Did you have the same experience? Do your teeth feel "smooth" now?

The Bowring Family said...

Hi Tom

Do you know anyone who has used Calcium Therapy yet?

Thanks

Kelly

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Sun,

Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness! You have made amazing breakthroughs, and I am so happy you shared with me! Huge congratulations.

Waterpik tip: I can't believe I am a civil engineer and I have not even considered being specific about this point (no pun intended). Toothbrush tip, no!!!! Classic Jet Tip or Gum Pocket Tip, yes! You are 100% on the right track. Now I need to audit all my posts for clarity about this.

Waterpik power setting: There's a fine line between ineffectively low power and harmfully high power. From my experience, if the power is too high, you will feel sharp pain in your pockets. I suggest you slide it up to there and then back it off until you only occasionally (probably not every night) feel a stab of sharp pain.

Fruit: Ingenious! Related to microbiome. See below.

Hydrogen peroxide: Good going. I think that eventually you will want to reduce and eliminate the germicide in hopes of developing a healthy microbiome in your mouth. I've heard cheese, yogurt, sauerkraut, etc, and a special extract called K12 (for grade school "K-12" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449041/) are good for your mouth.

Glossy teeth: Yes. I confirm your impression. That is one of the signs of success, along with sweet breath and pink gums. Please stay in touch on that.

Limit to nightly: I totally agree. And I have tried my best to be emphatic about that.

Congratulations, again, Sun!

Tom

Unknown said...

Hi, are you mouth breathing at night? This will cause red swollen gums. I use a cloth tape to keep my lips sealed at night.

Sun said...

About 4 weeks have passed since my previous comment and I'm happy to confirm that it still works for me! My gums do not bleed anymore.
They were bleeding almost every day for the past year but not anymore. The first thing I was doing after waking up for the past year was checking the color of my saliva. To my disappointment, almost every morning the color of my saliva was a different shade of red. Now I wake up, check my saliva color and it's always white.
For the past year I was unable to eat any spicy food. After eating it my gums would become even more swollen within minutes, and it would take weeks of restraining from spicy food for my gums to shrink back to their usual moderately swollen state.
Actually, I thought my life was going to end very soon because everybody points out to the strong correlation between heart health and gum health, and I thought my gums were unhealthy because my heart was unhealthy (though I didn't have any symptoms of heart disease). I was wrong!
For the past year my gums were bleeding like crazy after water-flossing them with WaterPik at 5-10% power, and I couldn't even point the water jet at certain areas of my gums because these areas were too sensitive. Now I use the same WaterPik at 40% power and my gums don't bleed.

I proved to myself for 100% that mouth breathing, vitamin C, vitamin D, vitamin K2, calcium, selenium, magnesium, iron, potassium, HCLF, WHPB, keto, paleo, bone broth, vegetables, green leafy vegetables, liver, nuts, seeds, whole grains, legumes, heart disease, regular flossing (!), avoiding cold/hot food, hydration, regular teeth scaling (!), salt, stress, mood, proper sleeping, rest, omega-3, DHA, EPA, omega-6, barberine, saturated fat, luteine, lycopene, perfectly smelling breath (!), ultrasonic toothbrushing, water swishing, oil pulling, tongue scraping, any known vitamin or mineral in any combination, etc. had very little to do (if anything) with my gum disease. The only causes of my gum disease were microbes who lived inside my mouth. Unfortunately, it seems water-flossing with plain water was also useless. I flossed every day, my breath was perfect, but my gums were bleeding almost every single day. Literally the very next day after I increased the pressure on my WaterPik, changed the tip and added more germicide, the one year old bleeding stopped, and never came back again.

>eventually you will want to reduce and eliminate the germicide
I agree. My gums are still far from perfect at the moment, but they are far better than they were before. I expect it's going to take a very long time for them to recover. I tried to skip using hydrogen peroxide one day and I had the feeling it's not the right time for me to start eliminating the germicide yet. Actually, for the past few weeks I was wondering about the connection between germicides and spicy food.

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Sun, this is phenomenal! We should do a blog post or a Youtube interview or both or something. Wow! Your problem was extremely and maddeningly persistent despite the involvement of professionals. And you solved it yourself in one day! Wow!

I am super glad you were so thorough in this latest comment. I am completely elated by your breakthrough.

Tom

Thomas Gail Haws said...

Sun,

By the way, I went to add the tips clarification to my blog posts a few days ago and—go figure—the Blogger interface was broken. The edit links weren't working for me (never happened before). I still hope to do some mass clarifications based on your experience.

Tom